Is the god of Jesus the god of the old testament?

28 06 2010

The purpose of this article is not to offend anyone. But, if it does, I really don’t care. I am sure lots of christians out there will probablly be praying for my soul. Don’t, pray for your own.               

Well, here goes.

Is the god of Jesus the god of the old testament? My answer is no. The god that Jesus speaks of is a loving, compassionate god. A father who loves all his children. A god of peace. The god of the old testament is nothing like this. This is a god that punishes mankind for eternity for some thing the first man and woman did. Their crime was disobeying god and gaining. A god that wanted us to remain ignorant. Jesus on the other hand said “seek the truth, and it will set you free”. the god of the old testament tied to wipe out humanity with a flood. this god tells his people to go into villages and kill every man woman and child. Where is the Love in that? what Kind of god tells his people to commit such atrocities. That’s another thing, why would a kind  and loving god favor one race over all others? This is a rascist god.

God tells Abraham to murder his own son, then when he was about to do it , god pretty much says, I was just kidding, but now I know that you  are obiedient. this is a sadistic god.   in the old testament, when it talks about how the  Pharoh fed the hebrew children to the crocidiles, every one says how evil it was. but when god curses Egypt, and kills evvery first born son. it’s alright. So, it is bad if we do it, but it is ok if god does it. The god of jesus would never be like this.

So, Is the god of Jesus the god of the old testement? No.

I rest my case.

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41 responses

24 04 2011
amatullah1

Hello nemo!
I knw that u dislike commenting in this post..bt I have to say something to u in a very friendly manner..
I did it in my blog,
http://www.stop0think.wordpress.com/2011/04/24/is-god-of-jesus-the-god-of-old-testement/

I would be happy, if u could read n comment..!
Take care!

24 04 2011
Is God of Jesus, the God of Old Testement? « stop0think

[…] To read fully click here. […]

27 02 2011
HopeSurrendered

Hi Nemo! I read the post and some of the comments. Sorry, I know this is about 8 months behind the curve!

So, I saw something in the comments about the Bible, and whether it was written by God or man. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that, “All scripture is God-breathed.” So even though it was physically written by a man, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. That might seem like circular logic, because the Bible is saying that the Bible was inspired by God, but a study of this passage in the original Greek reveals that that phrase is supposed to leave the reader with a sense of divine mystery about it. And when it comes right down to it, it really is something divine and miraculous! But then again, what about God isn’t?

I also wanted to comment on the differences between Old and New Testaments. It’s actually amazing the amount of continuity between the two. The most straightforward example I can think of is Matthew 5:17, where Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law [of Moses] or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” I don’t think He would have suffered through the cross and all its pain to fulfill the laws and prophecies of a god other than his own. That would be like me living in the U.S. and adhering to South African laws, then imposing punishment on myself if I broke one of them. I mean, I could do it if I wanted, but it would accomplish nothing.

22 01 2011
dove124

Nemo,
No, I’m not, but you are. It is due because of what you really are. A MORON , A LIAR.
And your not worth talking to.

24 01 2011
nemo235

never wanted to talk to you . al you have done is talk shit. I was just hoping you would shut up. said from the begining that the content of that article is an opinion.you are the one who tries to push your oppinion as being fact. I always stay true to myself. If I was a Hypocrate I would delete your comments. Hey didn’t you ban me from your blog? If so I have made my point.

16 01 2011
dove124

merequeerchristianity,
We are not haters, we are just trying to correct the wrong notion of Nemo , and you about God.

You say that you do not understand why God demand death for an adulterer in Deauteronomy22, and then declare His followers wrong for attempting to carry out His command(John 7).

Try to understand the explanation:
In the beginning, God and the nation of Israel had an agreement or COVENANT.
And I will establish MY COVENANT between ME and THEE and THY SEED AFTER THEE in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a GOD UNTO THEE, and to THY SEED AFTER THEE.– ((Genesis 17:7)

“And He declare unto you His COVENANT, which He commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; And He wrote them upon two table of stone”(Deut. 4:13)

The Law of Moses was the schoolmaster of the nation of Israel to bring them to Christ, that they might be justified BY FAITH (Gal. 3:24). So in this time frame, His followers must obey the commandments given by God to Moises. That is called THE LAW OF MOSES. If His followers will not obey, there is a punishment imputed to them, sometimes the punishment is death.
So that any violators will not influence those who are obedience to God.
But , as time goes by, The House of Israel , and the House of Judah have BROKEN the Covenant which God made with their fathers(Jeremiah 11:10)
Take note# It is not God who broke the Covenant but the people of Israel and the people of Judah. So God has annulled that Covenant(Zechariah 11:10)

Now , when Faith had come, they are no longer under a schoolmaster, but are the children of God : BY FAITH in CHRIST JESUS.(Galatians 3:25-26)

This is now a New Time Frame :
# “For if the First Covenant had been FAULTLESS, then should no place have been sought for THE SECOND”.(Hebrews 8:7)
# “For the Priesthood BEING CHANGED, there is made of necessity A CHANGE OF THE LAW”.(Hebrews 7:12)
# We are now ,( Jews and the Gentiles) under THE LAW OF CHRIST, not anymore under the law of Moses.
Now your going to ask me, WHY?
The answer lies in FREE WILL. Your willingness, (FEAR in God) , obeying totally even without a sword hanging above your head, as an outright punishment if you disobey in time of Moses.
Your going to ask again, Why did He not impose that FREEWILL during Moses ?
You must remember that Israel was a slaved of Egypt for more than 400 years, there must be a process to be imposed, little by little. They are used to strict rules of Egyptians, you cannot give them freedom just yet, or else they will scatter each to his own. They have to be taught.
Do you understand these?

I pray you do.

18 01 2011
nemo235

cause you were there right? oh yeah you have a magical book. Dove you are one of the biggest haters and hypocrates on here.

18 01 2011
nemo235

My god is not a murderer, but your version is

9 01 2011
merequeerchristianity

Wow, Nemo. Sorry about all the haters out there.
I believe you raise some valid and age-old questions about the continuity and personage of the God presented in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the writings of the early Christian Jews. It is hard to see how a God could demand death for adulterers one day (Deuteronomy 22) and then declare his followers wrong for attempting to carry out his commands (John 7).

Someone that could help you in the quest to understand this seeming contradiction is Marcion of Sinope. He asked many of the same questions that you are asking now, and met strong resistance from the orthodox church. His beliefs helped form Marcionism. It would also be great to read the reactions of those who fought against Marcion; people like Tertullian or Eusebius.

I personally believe that the God of the Jews is the God of Christianity. But you should not be asked to profess that without being able to question it. Fortunately, this is a wealth of ideas to be found in those church leaders I mentioned before. I hope that they can help you understand and defend your beliefs.

22 10 2010
dove124

nemo,
that is the attitude of a person that is fooling himself. And not Christian like. You can always differentiate a follower of Christ and a follower of the devil. Every time a person who is cornered, and can’t come up anymore of any logical argument , will always resort to bad words to cover up his inferiority, and ignorance.
The bible considered him a FOOL.
So the bible had these to say to a fool, like you.
#the hearts of fools proclaimed foolishness (Prov. 12:23)
# the legs of the lame are not equal: so is the parable in the mouth of fools.(Prov. 26:7)
#A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the anare of his soul(Prov.18:7)
# A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself(Prov. 18:2)
#The father of a fool hath no joy(Prov. 17:21)
# The mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness(Prov. 15: 14)
#The mouth of fools poured out foolishness(Prov. 15:2)
# Fools make a mock at sin(Prov. 14:9)
#The folly of a fools is deceits(14::8)
# in the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride(14:3)
# A fool layeth open his folly(13:16)
# The hearts of fools proclaimed foolishness(12:23)
# He that uttered slander, is a fool(10:18))
# the wise shall inherit glory; but SHAME shall be the promotion of fools(3:35)

So, these are the advice of the bible to your reader:
# SPEAK NOT in the ears of a fool : for he will despise the wisdom of thy words (Prov. 23:9)
# GO from the presence of a foolish man, when you perceived not in his lips of knowledge (Prov. 14:7)

23 10 2010
nemo235

there you go insulting me again. that’s not very christian like either. nor is trying to force your particular beliefs on others. you are the one who claims to be a christian. all you are doing is bringing shame to true christians. all because I had a diference of oppinion. you are just like Joel.

20 10 2010
dove124

proxygnosis,
you are treading in a dangerous manner, you also believe in that name (Jesus Christ) but you are not careful in what you are saying.
Remember this verse?
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME.(Matthew 12:32)
Just think about it, if it is not forgiven for you to speak against the Holy Ghost, how much more if you speaketh against the God of Abraham , Isaac and of Israel, and also the Father of Spirits, and most of all, The Father of Jesus Christ?
So next time, if you say you are a Christian, be very careful in what you will utter, especially if it pertain to God the Father.

22 10 2010
nemo235

first of all I am not speaking against god. second of all any time any one questions the bible (which was written by men not god) you nutsos start talking shit. I was just making an observation of how cruel the god in the old testament was, compared with the way jesus described god. If you don’t think that God ordering his followers to murder women and children or comit Genocide is chuel then there is something wrong with you. that is not love. Jesus said that god is love. you have to ask yourself a question, Do you worship god or the Bible?

20 10 2010
dove124

joel, nemo325,
Guys, slow it down….you two have one in common, you believed in Jesus Christ. You can start solving your differences from that.
But I have one question to both of you, what particular “CHURCH” you two are talking about?
And nemo325, if you believed in Jesus Christ,( which I doubted), You will believed that the God of OT is also the God of NT, because HE is the one who SENT Jesus to Earth, which Jesus testified of that. And if you continue to say to me, that you believed in Jesus, why is it, that you kept on arguing that “it is not Jesus who said that, but the author of the book”. How come you believe in that name(Jesus Christ), when in fact, it is only, in your point of view, as only the work of that author, and you don’t believe what the author had written.
It is very confusing. Maybe it is because of your ignorance of the bible? just asking.

22 10 2010
nemo235

bite me, you right wing christian asshole.

13 07 2010
timvictor

On surface value they may be taken as the same Godde, but can we stretch that to include the Godde of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Godde of the Mormons and all others bearing the same title or family resemblance? I think we end up with a hermeneutic error if we do … but how to illustrate what I mean?

To illustrate I’d draw a distinction between the Godde. They have made themselves known in and through their respective scriptures, whether oral or written (let’s leave the debate as to their actuality and integrity aside for the sake of exploration), so let’s take these at face value in order to get to know them a bit better.

In light of that, what do you (i.e. anyone pursuing the line of thought) make of the attitude of YHWH with regard to the OT account of the Flood versus the Sumerian/Babylonian account of the attitudes as portrayed in the Epic of Gilgamesh; Similarly the sacrifice of the firstborn as requested by Baal vs the same sacrifice as requested by YHWH?

Also, hermeneutically speaking (allowing the text to speak rather than interjecting my assumptions and biases into the story), and possibly more relevant to your post, Jesus identified the Godde of the OT as His Father … and put a strong case forward that this Father of His is the ‘Godde of love’ or the ‘Godde who loves as first priority’.

4 07 2010
jwhitesensei

Joel
“I’m calling you a heretic because you disagree with the Church. You disagree with what the community of believers, from different backgrounds, ethnicities, cultures, and languages, has believed for 2,000 years. THAT is what makes you a heretic, not that you disagree with me.”

And what of the religions that outdate the “Church”? Let me explain something to you, young man. Simply because a group or a majority says something or believes something does not make it right. No religion, including your “Church” has it 100% right. The thing that has always struck me is that the “Church” has always said that God was the ultimate and supreme being in the universe and that his word was the final word. Then to augment that, the Church says that it is his sole represenative here on earth. That only they speak for God. Kind of puts it all in a neat little box for the masses of humanity to surrender complete control to the organization with no disagreements doesn’t it? And if the Church says that I, or nemo, or anyone else is a heratic, then we must certainly be, musn’t we. Do you not see how utterly controling that is? Are you so blind in your devotion that you cannot accept that there just might be other ways, other paths, to the Divine?

I agree that all people have the right to worship their diety as they see fit. Yet I strongly disagree that one religion, simply because it has more followers or a larger “community”, makes the rules for all mankind. And that is where your “Church” has gotten it all wrong.

You brag about your religion being the top dog for 2000 years yet mine pre-dates that by some 8,000 years. And here I sit, a minority as far as spiritual paths go, simply shaking my head at how blind most Christians are to the truth. Most are good and sincere people. They have simply been brainwashed into believing what the Church tells them is the truth.

So if you’d like brand me a heratic also. Or rather have the church brand me as such. Unfortunately I do not recognize the Church’s authority as the sole authority in the world so it means little to me

4 07 2010
Joel

You’re making quite a few assumptions. I never once said that the Church was right because it’s been around for 2,000 years or is the majority religion. The Church is right because reason, revelation, and evidence prove it to be right. In light of this, such reason, revelation, and evidence have been accepted and validated for 2,000 years, thus to go against all of that is (1) absurd and (2) leaves a burden of proof on those who wish to go against it.

Secondly, how is the Church controlling? If you look to the Eastern Orthodox, there are various styles of liturgy and each church is left to operate within its community as it sees fit, so long as it holds to doctrinal and ethical purity. How is that controlling?

Furthermore, the Church has always stated that its beliefs are founded upon reason and revelation and has never asked anyone to accept such beliefs blindly. Only when tyrants controlled the Church did the idea of “blind faith” come into being. In asking its members to evaluate their beliefs rationally, how does that constitute “brainwashing”?

You assume quite a bit to assume I have been brainwashed. One does not work towards a PhD in the philosophy of religion and ethics by avoiding Kant, Nietzsche, Buddhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, or many other non-Christian ideas. I have studied other philosophies and religions. I have weighed them by the same standard I weigh Christianity. I have doubted my faith and explored it, a process that continues to this day. Thus far, Christianity has reigned supreme in answering the big questions. The other religions and philosophies, however, have been found wanting.

So you have quite a bit to learn. For one, never assume that just because someone is a Christian and supports 2,000 years of tradition they have somehow been brainwashed. I was raised to reject tradition and the traditional Church, yet here I am supporting it. So I explored this on my own. Furthermore, I have studied other religions and not as a, “Let’s see how they’re wrong” mentality, but instead, “Let’s evaluate them and see if they’re true and what truth lays within them.”

I disagree with you not because I have been brainwashed, but because I have done deep studies on these issues. Can you say the same? Or have you been brainwashed by the irrational “open-mindedness” so prevalent these days, a belief that by its very nature violates the law of non-contradiction?

4 07 2010
jwhitesensei

Please explain to me what evidence you have that surpasses any other religion in the world. You have a book of scriptures. There are many religions that have those. You have histrical figures aka; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Peter, ect. Many other religions have the very same sort of events and figures that are legitimate historical people and events.

Revelations? Many Native American Shamen have had revelations while ingesting peyote or simply by depriving themselves of food and water. I can go to sleep and have a “revelation”. Many times when I read the tarot cards for others I have revelations.

How is the church controlling? Do I really have to explain this? Very well once again:
The Christian God says he is all powerful. All knowing. His word is the last and final word on humanity. The church says that it is his represenative on earth. You are not allowed to question God. That is a sin. That is herasy. If the church represents God here then the church has the final say so in peoples lives. Do we really have to take this any further? I think it is quite clear. In the Middle ages, the church deemed witches as evil. What happened? Over a quarter of a million people were put to death in various gruesome fashions or tortured for believeing in things the church claimed to be evil or against God. Also in the Middle Ages, the Christian kings of Europe launched their “Holy Wars” on the Muslims in the name of God. Fighting and killing over a city, a country. This has been repeated numerous times in history. Wars killing and bloodshed over land and ritches with the Church backing it.

Never asked anyone to accept it’s beliefs blindly? How many native cultures have been assimulated into the church? How many tribes, living peacefully with their own beliefs and customs have been taken and brainwashed by missionarries? In Europe the church began by accepting the Celts beliefs. some of their rituals were even adopted into the rituals of the church. They lived and co-existed with the Pagans. But the church wanted more. They began to take a nasty attitude to them. They burnt down the sacred groves and erected churches in their place. They took Pagan holidays and “Christianized” them. All in an attempt to get the native people to convert. finally they declared that the native beliefs were evil and of Satan and began the Inquisition. The Burning Times lasted for over 500 years and to this day we are crtiticized, harrassed, and discriminated against because of our spiritual path.

I am not disrespecting you. I am criticizing your church. Your education seems very impressive. Yet does not your own Bible say “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”? I too have studied religions of the world. I began my life, as you are now, a Christian. I was even taking college courses to be a minister in your faith. Yet as I got older more and more questions arose in my mind and heart. As I began to research I saw things from a point of view aside from Christianity. I saw how scripture in the Bible had been misinterpreted from it’s original text. How man had called together two counsels to say what would go into the Bible and what would be left out. MAN did that, not God.

You have studied and done deep studies on something that has been, through force and bloodshed at times, the dominant religion for 2000 years. You have studied exactly what people want you to believe.

Yet, I do not hold any ill will toward you. I just don’t think that you, or any other person or religion has the right to call another a heretic or anything else that degrades them simply because it differs from what you believe.

You see, Joel, I’m an ordained minister in my religion. I was ordained by a inter denominational organization. So, I’m not arguing with you. simply stated; never close your mind or heart to the beliefs of others just because of what you are. All religions are simply spokes in a great wheel that lead to the very same center.

2 07 2010
Joel

If there was little doubt that God called for your death, then yeah, it’d be an act of justice.

Fortunately, there are numerous steps that are needed to determine this and God does not do such things arbitrarily.

Even more fortunate, we are no longer under the Old Covenant style and therefore God would not call for your death anymore.

2 07 2010
nemo235

o.k joel. your right, I’m wrong. Youare a saint , Iam a sinner. I’m a heretic, your a savior. I no loger have faith that there is such a thing as a good christian. This inteview is over.

sincerly,
A former christian.

2 07 2010
Joel

Well if you want to overreact that won’t get you anywhere.

Instead of boohooing about what I said, why not study it? Why not explore what I’m saying, study it, take the time out of your day to read books (*gasp!*) and look these issues up?

I never claimed I wasn’t a sinner and I certainly never said I was a savior. I’m neither. Any claim on me being sinless or a savior is your own sarcastic conjecture.

2 07 2010
Joel

Nemo,

I never insulted your intelligence. I asked if you had read the Old and New Testaments. You have yet to answer that question. In fact, by attributing a quote from Ghandi (“Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind) to Jesus, you simply further my belief that you haven’t put a lot of study into this issue.

Likewise, beliefs don’t matter. Pointing out that you have a right to believe what you want to believe is superfluous. Yes, the government can’t prohibit you from believing what you want, but the Church can (in that they can disallow fellowship if you believe a certain way). Believe something with all the sincerity you want, but you can still be wrong, and if you hold a wrong belief, then you can be held accountable for that. Thus, it’s vitally important to seek out truth, to test our beliefs, and to actually study issues (like reading the Old and New Testament before jumping to conclusions).

As for heresy, I’m not calling you a heretic because you disagree with me, I’m calling you a heretic because you disagree with the Church. You disagree with what the community of believers, from different backgrounds, ethnicities, cultures, and languages, has believed for 2,000 years. THAT is what makes you a heretic, not that you disagree with me. For instance, if someone says that the local church is to be autonomous or that the Church should influence the government, they would be in disagreement with me, but I would not consider them a heretic. The reason is that both of those issues have been debated for 2,000 years and it’s difficult to reach a consensus, likewise neither deal with the nature of God.

What you are doing is questioning the very nature of God and doing so without properly studying His nature. That’s a dangerous thing to do. Would Jesus want us to argue over technicalities? No, He’d want you to abandon your heretical teachings and embrace Him as He is, as He has been presented to us for the past 2,000 years.

2 07 2010
nemo235

to not question the nature, is to not know the nature of god. To cite a tiny collection of christian writings as proof
is Illocical. it is not proof, its a condensed version of christian teachings. First of all the oldest of the gospels was written over a hundred years after the death of jesus, dont argue this fact with me argue it with, argue it with the historians. To argue that theory is truth is preposterous. Truth is none of us Know what jesus was really like, we werent there. O.K I messed up, oops Quoted the wrong person. as far as the heretic thing, jesus was considered a heretic, becaused he challenged the establishment of the Pharisees. If he was here to day he would probably challenge the church. Since when is the church the supreme authority. being that you are a protestant, you are considered a heretic acording to catholic law.You still haven’t shown anything that that justifies the evil things that Yaweh comanded his followers to do. And saying “Because he is god”. doest do it.

besides having read your blog, your theology is very different than the majority of christians, so you too are a Heretic.

2 07 2010
Joel

A tiny collection of Christian writings? I’m referring to the majority writings about Christianity. There are hundreds of them in just the pre-Nicene era…this being a time when there was no printing press!

As for the “historians,” most actually agree that the Gospels were written at an earlier date. We have Clement of Rome writing in 90AD and quoting from the Gospels. We have Ignatius writing in 105AD quoting from both the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles. We have the Didache – who most date between 50AD and 70AD – quoting the Gospels. Likewise, all of the Gospels, when referencing the Temple, refer to it as if it were still standing. Yet, the Temple was torn down in 70AD. Not to mention the fact that manuscript 7Q5 (a fragment of Mark’s Gospel) is dated at 70AD and was found in a community outside of Jerusalem.

As for me being a heretic, what consensus did I violate? What in tradition have I contradicted? I am not considered a heretic by Catholic “law.” I am considered a dissonant, or someone in disagreement. I am unable to take communion, but I am hardly a heretic (unless you’re referring to Opus Dei and their definition of a heretic).

As for explaining why God would order killing people in the Old Testament, why do I have to prove He didn’t do that? I believe He did that and was justified in doing that. Rather, it is up to YOU to prove that the God of the New Testament is different, but so far you’re doing a horrible job of doing so.

2 07 2010
nemo235

so, if god told you to kill me, and you did it , it would be justifeid. It would not be a sin, but a sign of ritcheousness?

2 07 2010
jwhitesensei

Suprisingly enough being a Wiccan (that admission in itself should start a whole new conversation)I have actually thought about this myself and tend to agree with nemo. The God of the New Testament is said to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. This god was a god of love and forgiveness. As stated in previous posts, the god of the Old Testament was far from that. The god, Yaweh, of the Old Testament was jealous. He even admits this in scripture. He was also vengeful. The god, Jehovah, of the New Testament is loving and forgiving. I have heard from some that the name “Jehovah” was actually never mentioned in scripture. I am not sure if this is true or not. Yet most Christians refer to the god of the New Testament by this name.

Yes, I certainly believe they were two separate dieties.

2 07 2010
Joel

Again, how much of the Old Testament have you read? How much study have you put into it?

I ask because what you are teaching isn’t new. The Gnostics taught the same thing, but in order to justify their claims they had to erase parts of both the Old and New Testament.

God is just as forgiving and just as vengeful (since when was vengeance a bad thing when justified?) in both the Old and New Testaments. Even a quick read through both the Old and New Testaments will show that God is the same in both of them.

2 07 2010
nemo235

acording to jesus vengance is wrong. he said “eye for an eye leaves the whole world Blind”.
But I guess what jesus said is irrelevant, be cause acording to christian doctrine, the most important thing is that he died for our sins.

2 07 2010
nemo235

Joel , this is not about who is right or wrong. this is about what I believe. I could be wrong but I could be right. But I have the right to believe what I believe, and you have a right to believe what you believe. To label someone a heretic just because thier beliefs are not the same as yours, thats just wrong. I love jesus as much as you do. Do you think he would want us arguing about technicalities. I admit that I have said somethings to you that I shouldn’t have, in anger. When I get angry, my brain ceases to function.
the whole thing is, that if you hadn’t started your commenting by insulting my inteligence, and would have approached me with kindness, we could of had a civil conversation. how about a truce?

2 07 2010
CK

Nemo,

I am not surprised that you draw such a sharp division between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the God of Jesus. That interpretation is nothing new; the so-called Gnostics made the same argument.

I think there are a couple reasons they made that argument. First, a sure element of Gnosticism was dualism: the physical vs. the spiritual, matter vs. non-materiality, good vs. evil, etc. (Interestingly, the dualism of Gnosticism was probably due to the influence of Zoroastrianism.) Therefore, since there are two Testaments – the Old and the New – there is perfect ground for dualism: a deity of the Old vs. a deity of the New.

Second, Israelite scripture very clearly esteemed and valued the created, material world. God calls creation “good” some 7 times in Genesis 1. This clashed with Gnostic sensibilities, which said that the material world was evil and the goal of salvation was to obtain esoteric gnosis in order to escape the material world. Also, Israelite scripture portrays God as very anthropopathic and anthropomorphic. This, too, unsettled Gnostic sensibilities, those sensibilities were based on Platonic philosophy, which allowed no room for the “crude” depictions of Israelite imagination and thinking about God. Instead, the God of Platonism (and the philosophers) and of Gnosticism was so utterly transcendent and unchangeable and spiritual that it could not interact with the created world.

But is what you say true? Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a different God than the God of Jesus? No, you are mistaken. The God of Israel is a compassionate God.

– When the man hid himself from God in the garden, “God called out to the man and said to him, Where are you?” (Genesis 3.9 NJPS), thus showing his care and concern for the man.

– “And when the waters had swelled on the earth one hundred and fifty days, God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow across the earth, and the waters subsided” (Genesis 7.24–8.1 NJPS). Remembering is a powerful theme in the Old Testament, showing God’s concern and care for the world and his people.

– “Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking of every clean animal and of every clean bird, he offered burnt offerings on the altar. The LORD smelled the pleasing odor, and the LORD said to Himself: Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the devisings of man’s mind are evil from his youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living being, as I have done” (Genesis 8.20-21 NJPS). Here, God involves himself in an unconditional commitment to the created order and its well being.

– “The LORD came down in a cloud; He stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. The LORD passed before him and proclaimed: The LORD! the LORD! a God compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in kindness and faithfulness, extending kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin” (Exodus 34.5-7 NJPS)

– “It is I, I who — for My own sake — wipe your transgressions away and remember your sins no more” (Isaiah 43.25 NJPS)

– “Seek the LORD while He can be found, call to Him while He is near. Let the wicked give up his ways, the sinful man his plans; let him turn back to the LORD, and He will pardon him; to our God, for He freely forgives” (Isaiah 55.6-7 NJPS)

– “Is it my desire that a wicked person shall die? — says the LORD. It is rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live” (Ezekiel 18.23 NJPS)

– “I will heal their affliction, generously will I take them back in love; for my anger has turned away from them” (Hosea 14.5 NJPS)

– “Then the LORD said: You cared about the plant, which you did not work for and which you did not grow, which appeared overnight and perished overnight. And should I not care about Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not yet know their right hand from their left, and many beasts as well!” (Jonah 4.10-11 NJPS)

– “Who is a God like You, forgiving iniquity and remitting transgression; who has not maintained His wrath forever against the remnant of His own people, because He loves graciousness! He will take us back in love; He will cover up our iniquities, You will hurl all our sins into the depths of the sea. You will keep faith with Jacob, loyalty to Abraham, as You promised on oath to our fathers in days gone by” (Micah 7.18-20 NJPS)

– “But this do I call to mind, therefore I have hope: the kindness of the LORD has not ended, His mercies are not spent. They are renewed every morning — ample is your grace! The LORD is my portion, I say with full heart; therefore will I hope in Him. The LORD is good to those who trust in Him, to the one who seeks Him; it is good to wait patiently till rescue comes from the LORD” (Lamentations 3.21-26 NJPS)

– Also read Psalms 34, 103, and 107.

These are among the innumerable places where God is shown to be good, gracious, kind, faithful, merciful, loving; where he is depicted as a God of creation, hope, deliverance, salvation; where is he exalted as a God who is righteous and worthy of love.

Indeed, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of Jesus, because Jesus is the climactic fulfillment of all those promises that God made to the fathers of Israel, the expression of his faithfulness to Israel.

If you cannot see that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are one and the same, then it is because you have misread both the Old Testament and the New; it is because you have created false dichotomies and made exaggerations; it is because you misunderstand the message of scripture — what is says about God, about the world, about Israel, about man; it is because you do not see the underlying unity and consistency of the Bible.

2 07 2010
Joel

Yes, you are a heretic. What of it?

2 07 2010
Joel

Nemo,

How much of the Old and New Testaments have you read? I ask because the Old Testament doesn’t talk about people going to Hell. Instead, it is Jesus who says people will go to Hell unless they accept Him.

This would seem to throw a wrench in what you’re saying.

2 07 2010
nemo235

If you read the actual words of Jesus he never sa’t you will go to hell if they don’t accept. nor does he call himself the son of god, nor does he say that he came to die for our sins. The narrators do, but jesus doesnt. Try actualy reading the bible, istead of listening to what your pastor says. your staement shows that you lack in understanding in thinking with your own brain. you just proved Darwins theory incorect. You are en example of Deevolution

2 07 2010
Joel

Wow Nemo, sticks and stones eh?

In Matthew 3:17 we have the Father saying that Christ is His Son. In matthew 16 Peter calls Christ the Son of God (in fact, he calls Jesus the living God) and Jesus doesn’t rebuke Peter for these words. In Matthew 26 the high priest asks Jesus if he claims to be the Son of God, to which Jesus responds with a resounding “Yes.”

In Luke 16 we learn about hell through Jesus’ teaching. Matthew 25:41 and 13:42 both have Jesus teaching that the unrepentant will go to Hell.

Finally, as for dying for our sins, He states in the Gospels that He would lay His life down for His friends. John the Baptist announces Jesus’ coming by saying that Jesus is the Lamb of God who will take away the sins of the world, to which Jesus does not object.

Nemo, drop the rhetoric and attitude and look at these issues intellectually. All you did was insult me and lay baseless claims that can be refuted by a cursory read of the New Testament.

Again, you accuse me of listening to my pastor, being stupid, blah blah blah. You accomplish nothing except to show you’re a hypocrite who hasn’t spent that much time thinking on these issues. Use some logic, it would do you some good.

2 07 2010
nemo235

No,If you read my policy on comments, I said that If you start a battle, prepare for some return file. A hypocrate, calling me a hypocrate, so much for being nojudgemental. This means war. and remember, you Insulted me first.

2 07 2010
nemo235

No. jesus said, so you say I am. He did not confirm or deny

29 06 2010
proxygnosis

Hi Nemo,

looks like you have done some serious and honest thinking about the most important subject there is in this world, along with the courage and integrity to face the conclusion you have drawn – qualities that are sadly absent in most God-botherers, when it comes to the central theme and purpose of Scripture, namely the righteousness of God.

As you have noted, it is indeed unrighteous for God, or anybody else for that matter, to hold to account and punish a man for somebody else’s transgression. A God who wants to be taken seriously cannot expect his subjects to abide by principles he himself transgresses.

Paul tells us that God’s law is fine, PROVIDED it is HANDLED LAWFULLY. To punish people for their own WILFULL sin is just, but to condemn them for failing to be perfect due to having been subjected by God to sin because of the stuff-up of a third party, is clearly a mishandling of the law, in fact, a transgression against it.

In Exodus 21, the God of Jesus, YHWH, gives us candid insight into how he feels about this issue of justice. Verses 29 and 30 gives the case of a bull who his owner knows is in the habit of goring people, but who fails to keep him locked up properly, resulting in the loss of life to innocent people.

His verdict: The bull, as well as THE OWNER of the bull, should be put to death without fail!
In case the owner is spared his life, a ransom must be imposed upon him, to the VALUE OF HIS VERY OWN SOUL! How much is someone’s life worth? Certainly all he possesses and is ever able to acquire in his life span, and then some.

Now think about it: God owns a dangerous ‘bull’ as it were; his name is Satan the Devil. God knew that he was a murder from the beginning, but instead of keeping him safely behind fences, he puts him in charge of Eden, thereby exposing all of mankind to certain death.

Therefore according to God’s own righteous law, GOD HIMSELF IS DESERVING OF DEATH!
Since he is immortal, inherently deathless, a ransom, or substitute has to die for him – someone who is closest in value to himself, such as his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, the reflection of his glory, the exact representation of his very being – in order for justice to be done!

Because the Father has precisely purposed and prepared his Son, from the founding of the world, to serve as guarantee of his righteousness and scrupulous integrity – not withholding even his only begotten Son in order for us to be saved and reconciled again to him, demonstrating his righteousness and providing for our righteous standing before him through our faith in his Son, his apology to us for all the suffering we have endured unjustly, as well as forgiveness for all the pain and hurt that we have caused to others – that is why I can respect and love the God of the old testament, the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Jesus came to fulfil the Law – not omitting a letter or a particle of it – which demanded his death, on behalf of our transgressions that we committed because God did not protect us from unjustly being infected with the result of Adam’s transgression, namely sin.

If God knows how to do what is right, and yet does not do it, it is a sin to him. He that sins ought to die. That is the law of God – if applying to us, how much more so to himself!

That is why it was righteous for Christ to die, that we might be spared, have eternal life, and prove the Father righteous by our acceptance of his righteousness in Christ.

No one knows the Son, but the Father, and no one knows the Father, but the Son, AND, ANYONE TO WHOM THE SON IS WILLING TO REVEAL HIM!
Here is something to look forward to.

love, proxygnosis

29 06 2010
nemo235

Thank you for being nice, and not attacking.
you are a true christian. I wish all christians were like you

2 07 2010
Joel

Yeah…trust me mate, this is no war. Calling me an example of devolution (which you can’t spell correctly, amongst other things) isn’t an insult, but pointing out you’re a hypocrite is somehow an insulte? Trust me, this is no war, you’re not equipped to handle a war with me.

Anyway, is that your defense? “Well Jesus didn’t confirm or deny!” That’s the best you have to offer? And you call this a war?

I provided multiple passages that offer a context of Christ admitting that He is the Son of God. Likewise, in His culture if one was accused of being the Son fo God and didn’t deny it, one could face charges for blasphemy (and, in fact, this is what occurred). While on trial the high priest asked if Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, to which Jesus admitted that He was. When we take into account the saying of John and how Jesus did not deny this, it appears that He truly viewed Himself as both the Son of God who was here to take away the sins of the world.

If your best defense is the equivalent of a childhood “nu uh!” then do yourself (and me) a favor and put more thought into your next retort.

2 07 2010
nemo235

I read you blog,and see why you are being so cruel. acrording to your beliefs I am a heretic. Am I a heretic, joel.

P.S. my ability to spell has nothing to do with it.

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